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Post by sixpack on Mar 1, 2012 14:57:33 GMT -4
The only way it gets to be heads up is when you have several cars running under the time break and all have to dial 13.50 and 11.00 and then pile on the brakes on the other end causing a SAFETY issue. Wouldn't that be index racing? Heads up racing has no break out rule, therefore no need to slam on the brakes. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by ShoeBoxRacer on Mar 1, 2012 17:12:11 GMT -4
Uh...Yeah, Heads Up racing definately DOES have a break-out rule Travis. If you crank out a 9.89999 on a 9.90 dial, it's splinters in the backside time for you!!! LoL ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by provega on Mar 1, 2012 17:52:19 GMT -4
The only way it gets to be heads up is when you have several cars running under the time break and all have to dial 13.50 and 11.00 and then pile on the brakes on the other end causing a SAFETY issue. Wouldn't that be index racing? Heads up racing has no break out rule, therefore no need to slam on the brakes. ;D ;D ;D Yes it would be index racing in an index class but in bracket racing it's sandbagging if you go way under ,alittle under would be a breakout. This should not be an issue for you considering the rules have already been changed.
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Post by provega on Mar 1, 2012 18:10:13 GMT -4
(sixpack wrote) "As far as I'm concerned sandbagging ( or dialing soft ) is not a problem at all" My point wasn't that sandbagging is a problem ,it is "the hard on brakes cars" are the problem which are not the same cars that are dialing "soft".This is why most of this discussion was started likely two years ago about SAFETY on the other end.There is two places to win a race ,start and finish but when a guy is dialed so "soft " that his car lets out a puff of smoke on the other end it is definitely NOT safe.Dialing soft is done in thousands of a second sandbagging is dialing in tenths! The only way it gets to be heads up is when you have several cars running under the time break and all have to dial 13.50 and 11.00 and then pile on the brakes on the other end causing a SAFETY issue. That's OK..............I agree with what your saying here. Except for the last sentence. So, my line of thinking is that the overlap system would actually give people (who don't want to slam the brakes) the option to enter a class were they don't HAVE to slam the brakes. Here is a real life example: Most of the season my car runs in the 11:50 - 11:70 range full out ! Not fast enough for S/Pro. But sometimes in the spring and fall with good air and a strong tail wind it has gone as fast as 11:26 ! Too fast for Pro......Talk about slamming on the brakes. With a 1/2 second overlap between the classes, there would be no need for me to slam the brakes anymore. I should not have included 11.00 in my earlier post ,my argument is about the 13.50 where you typically have new street cars not seasoned racers and if you dont want to slam the brakes move up in class.If this is the argument at 11.00 and 11.49 soon you will need an overlap for the 11.00 down to 10.49 and it will keep going on forever.
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Post by trueblue on Mar 1, 2012 18:50:38 GMT -4
I ran the pro class and sportsman class at a few races last summer. I worked Saturdays, so I was a Sunday racer only. I run the two classes for seat time.
As for a safety issue. In my case, I probably hit the brake harder when I run all out, and get passed just before the line. When I sandbag in sportsman's, I catch up, and feather the throttle. Either way, I always feel in control of my car.
I probably won more runs running all out, than sandbagging in sportsman's. It did not show in the points because allot less entries in sportsman's than pro. So looking at my rounds, its was not really to my advantage to sandbag.
Again, seat time is key for me. When I show up Sundays, most get one or two time trials, and one qualifying. I get two to four time trial, and two qualifying. It does cost me more to get that, however that helps out the track.
And, not once did I delay the track for anyone waiting for me.
So, Yes, I am a supporter of overlap.
Don Mazerolle
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Post by imtheslo1 on Mar 2, 2012 9:32:20 GMT -4
At the beginning of this thread a suggestion was made to change the sportsman break to better align with the performance of the modern muscle car. I agree with this thought, but in my humble opinion I believe 13.00 would be a more relevant ET break. It seems most of these "new" muscle cars run around this mark. A drop to 12.00 sounds more selfserving than being concerned about a new car owner running against a car with open headers or breaking out. With the break at 12.00 it would be perfect for a car that runs say..... 11.70 in the heat of the summer to "dial soft" and double dip.
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Post by dudly on Mar 2, 2012 10:00:01 GMT -4
my car runs 12.40's If this happened I can't say I would not do both classes for the extra seat time. I drive 3 hours to race so the extra seat time would be great. If the overlap was at 13.00 then I wouldn't bother. Sandbagging is part of bracket racing . Don't run over your dial. It is a sport of head games and as long as the rules are followed it is up to you how you play. Just my two cents.
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Post by sixpack on Mar 2, 2012 10:30:29 GMT -4
Uh...Yeah, Heads Up racing definately DOES have a break-out rule Travis. If you crank out a 9.89999 on a 9.90 dial, it's splinters in the backside time for you!!! LoL ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D They say it's a good day if you learn something new. ;D ;D ;D I thought heads up meant fastest car wins. ( just like in the old street racing days) lol. if you dont want to slam the brakes move up in class.If this is the argument at 11.00 and 11.49 soon you will need an overlap for the 11.00 down to 10.49 and it will keep going on forever. I hope this doesn't come across as though I am trying to argue with you. That's not what I want. I really think this conversation is a good thing. As I can see that the benefits of switching to the overlap system is still not fully clear to some people. Now......... how do I explain this better ? You said "if you don't want to slam the breaks move up in class." The Problem with that is due to changes in air quality and wind direction from /week to week/ day to day/ hour to hour/ some cars can't always run the number for the faster class. So your suggestion would have us race in the slower class on slow days and the faster class on fast days. That's fine except it makes it hard to collect enough class points to be competative in the series. So our solution has always been to pick the slower class and just slam the breaks on the faster weeks/ days/ hours. I realize some people don't mind doing that.......but some do. You also said " and it will keep going for ever." I'm not sure I understand that ? The class break does not need to keep changing. Once we have established the break for a certain class we just put a 1/2 second overlap at that point. Since the bottom of Pro is now at 11:00 seconds. It can just stay there for years to come and all we need to do is put S/Pro at 11:49 and quicker. If your car never goes faster than 11:00 You just stay in Pro. If your car is capable of going faster than 11:00 on certain days then chances are it is always going to be faster than 11:49 so you just stay in S/Pro. I hope this helps clarify the concept of the overlap system. I also realize it only benifits a small percentage of the racers, but it doesn't have any down side (that I am aware of). So why not give it a try for a while.
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Post by sixpack on Mar 2, 2012 10:52:27 GMT -4
At the beginning of this thread a suggestion was made to change the sportsman break to better align with the performance of the modern muscle car. I agree with this thought, but in my humble opinion I believe 13.00 would be a more relevant ET break. It seems most of these "new" muscle cars run around this mark. A drop to 12.00 sounds more selfserving than being concerned about a new car owner running against a car with open headers or breaking out. With the break at 12.00 it would be perfect for a car that runs say..... 11.70 in the heat of the summer to "dial soft" and double dip. If your suggesting that my intentions are to double dip into the street class.......YOUR WRONG ! My plan is to upgrade my car to run 10.80 - 11.20. And that is why I want an overlap between Pro & S/Pro. SO I CAN STAY IN ONE CLASS FOR THE ENTIRE SEASON WITHOUT BEING FORCED TO SLAM ON THE BREAKS ON THE FASTER DAYS. The reason I want Street/Sportsman to go down to 12:00 seconds is to benifit the the track owners pocket books with larger car counts in that class. I guess my self serving ways has me wanting the tracks to stay in business so I can keep racing for years to come. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by imtheslo1 on Mar 2, 2012 11:24:09 GMT -4
I too hope all tracks prosper. If all you want is to run in S/P, then build the power to run it!! Are you going to go to the track owners meeting as a representative of the Pro and S/P racers and lobby to have the two classes with a 1/2 second overlap? Good luck. You have my vote!
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